Macacos

‘Everybody is somehow part of this history’

interview with Clayton Nascimento by Evelien Lindeboom

With his charismatic monologue Macacos (‘Apes’), Clayton Nascimento includes his audience in all the knowledge he gained by researching various aspects of racism in his home country, Brazil, from 16th-century colonization to current police violence against black people. A conversation about his meaningful work, about the quest that preceded it and his hopes for the future.

How did your theatre career start, what made you want to become an actor?

‘I am from the periphery of São Paulo, not from the favelas exactly, but from the unsafe outskirts around the city. I had wonderful parents. My mother took me to the theatre from when I was eight years old, mainly to take me away from the urban violence. I loved it so much, I continued studying Theatre when I got older. My parents were poor, my father was a bricklayer, and my mother a , but they made sure I had an education and they supported me in my wish to become an actor and writer. This is very uncommon in Brazil because living there can mean a very insecure existence. They were also the ones who taught me how to be a good person and how to fight for what’s important.’

Can you tell me about the research process that led you to make Macacos?

I know it took several years, how did you start?

 ‘After I got into the very good university of São Paulo, I tragically lost both my father and mother, so I went to live at the university area, where I emerged myself in the libraries, and started to read, read, read… I knew a lot about English plays, but I was curious about Brazilian people, especially black people. I wondered why there were hardly any black people in university, what was separating us?’

And how did you investigate your questions?

‘To answer my questions – such as: Why do black people get paid less than white people? Why is 68,2 percent of people in jail black? Why is 67 percent of people living in favelas black? How did those neighbourhoods get build in the first place? - I had to study outside of my own Drama department, in departments like: Economy, Architecture and History. I started reading and writing about how black people in my country were being disrespected already from the 16th century, until now. I realized that the Brazilian history that I found in science books, was not like the history I had learned in school.’

Can you describe some of your findings?

‘Many countries came here, and they all brought things and took things that ended up defining Brazil. For example: when the Brits came here, just because they had a contract with Portugal, they took all of our gold away… When the French came and tried to colonize, they left many words in our vocabulary, as did the Spanish. A mix of very many influences has been left. When the land was divided by Europeans, black people did not get a share, that’s how the favelas started. I realized there was very limited general knowledge about these things, and many people were miseducated on such historical topics.’

Can you give an example of how people were miseducated?

‘For example, in schools it is taught that princess Isabel was a saviour, because she signed the ‘golden law’ that ended slavery in 1888. In truth, she was not concerned to save black people. There was political pressure from foreign countries to stop colonization. Brazil and Portugal were the last ones to give up slavery, and that did not happen out of noble intentions, but to prevent a war.’

In the Netherlands people are familiar with North American culture and the Black Lives Matter-movement, but I think in general there is much less knowledge about racism in Brazil. Can you help us to understand the situation in Brazil now?

‘Yes. Let me tell you about day-to-day racism in Brazil: Everybody in Brazil knows black people don’t have the same opportunities as white people. Black people are paid less. In places of leisure, it is common to see white people relaxing and black people working. If you see people begging for money in the street it is most commonly black people. Every twenty-three minutes a black person is killed in Brazil. It is common for black people, who have no connection with criminals, to be killed by police. Even children are killed by ‘lost bullets.’ This has no consequences for the shooter.’

How did you choose the title Macacos?

‘It is very common for black Brazilian people to be called macaco, which means ‘monkey’ or ‘ape.’ When I saw a whole stadium yelling “macaco, macaco!” at soccer players, like Aranha or Vini Jr, and throwing bananas at them, I wondered myself what were the historical strengths that allowed that kind of situation, that’s when I decided to talk about the history of colonization and racism, and so, this would be the title.’

In Macacos, you talk especially about black artists…

‘I’ve found out that as an actor, I am appreciated on stage, but only a few hours later, on the way back home, I am perceived as a dangerous person. How can this change so quickly? One day in February, right after the carnival, I was going home and a white couple at the bus station pointed at me and said: ‘This guy robbed us, and now we want revenge.’ I pleaded to bystanders saying, ‘It wasn’t me, please believe me’, but nobody helped me, and I was beaten up. By being black, to them I had started out as guilty. Then I started studying black divas like Nina Simone, Bessy Smith and Elza Soares. They were all respected as artists but disrespected as people. They were all called ‘drunks’, ‘dangerous’ and ‘violent’. This is caused by social forces, similar to what happened to me at the bus stop.’

Can you tell me about Eduardo de Jesus Ferreira, the ten year old boy who was killed by the police, and how you included that in your monologue?

‘During my investigations, I looked at Brazilian black children: they don’t have opportunities to eat healthy, they can’t travel or study. They can often not be with their mother, because she is working for other families. As I was contemplating this, on April 2nd 2015, a ten-year-old boy, called Eduardo de Jesus Ferreira, was killed by the state while he was playing in front of his house. The state closed the case saying it was just an ‘unfortunate incident’. His mother started fighting for justice by herself, and I felt the need to be with her. Brazil is a very maternal, mother-orientated country; to be a mother is highly respected. So, when I started talking about her story, it got so much support and attention from the media, that the state decided to talk to Eduardo’s mother again and to reopen the case.’

Your play made a really big difference..

‘Yes. The national journal O Globo headlined that I had made ‘a very important document for our country in drama form.’ Nowadays my play is used in schoolbooks. Many people came to watch, hundreds of people per night, they wanted to know about the history of black lives in Brazil. But we are not done.’

What do you hope the future impact of Macacos will be?

‘My hope is that there will be many more discussions, and this will push other ''forgotten'' cases, like Eduardo’s, to be re-investigated. And I hope that the police will acknowledge what happened. Society is complaining about the police force, they should not be untouchable. I expect to show that black lives matter in Brazil, too. I expect to show how we can live a good and pleasant life. Brazil is an incredibly beautiful country with very good people too.’

Macacos is a very long and high energy monologue. Why did you decide to make and perform it all by yourself?

‘I made it all by myself because six years ago, no one wanted to work with a young black guy that was still in university and that was talking about colonization, police threats, and racism! I tried, but I had to write, direct, act, and even do the lights, everything by myself. Years later, some professional friends became part of the project.’

Did you purposefully add lighter moments, because of the very heavy topic?

‘I believe that God blesses the young. I was young enough not to realize it was such a harsh theme. I made it out of curiosity and wished to share the things I was finding out.’

How do you feel about coming to the Netherlands and how will you adapt the text to the Dutch context?

‘I am very proud and excited to go to Europe with this work, I have never been there! And I am happy because I know we have many connections. Dutch people historically came to the North-east part of Brazil and my whole family is from that region. I want to talk about what happened there. I feel that people want to learn. Everybody will be touched, because everybody is somehow part of this history: African, Dutch, Portuguese, French, English…’

What would you like the Dutch audience to take from this performance?

‘I want to tell that history has created racist habits in all of us, and we need to look critically at that. We must talk about it. Black people already know, from experience, but black and white people need to talk together.’

Can you tell me about your connection to our associate artist, the Brazilian film and theatre director, Christiane Jatahy?

‘When I was in university, she was a reference for Theatre students. I saw her work Julia, and I became a big fan. Then she came to Rio to see my play and she congratulated me with my work. I was so excited about that! This is what art can do, it can connect you to people you admire.’

What are your plans or upcoming projects?

‘I am continuing to write a trilogy, that Macacos was the first part of. The second part will focus on children and history, and the third part is still a secret.’

Is there anything else that you would like to add?

‘Yes, I want to add that, in the future, I intend to become a father. I know many people are worried about raising children because of their own experiences and struggles with the violence against black people. But I do want to be a father. Especially now, after telling Eduardo’s story, I want to pass on a different experience. I want to pass on the love and care I received from my parents. And last, but not least, I want to add that I feel proud, satisfied, and happy. I cannot wait to see you all!’

This interview took place online on 29 February 2024.

Evelien Lindaboom is a freelance journalist and editor. She writes about visual arts, theatre, literature and photography for various magazines and websites, with a special focus on the intersection of psychology, art and society.